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Wargames at Nationals 2005
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Rob



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 344
Location: Leicester

PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:10 pm    Post subject: Wargames at Nationals 2005 Reply with quote

Latest news on the categories for natioanls 2005

The war games on offer for this year will be:
Warhammer Fantasy Battles
Warhammer 40K
Blood Bowle
Necromunda
Battle fleet Gothic
Lord of the Rings (player must have both a Good and an Evil army)

No news on non GW games or open category, though it does not look hopeful.
See quote below
"I agree it would be nice to offer to offer other categories but this could lead to many small categories with too few players. With the above list the first 4 will almost certanly run the later 2 we will run if there are enougth replies.</i>


Rob
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Iain Hunter



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 382
Location: My own personal Shangri La

PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sucky sucky suck suck! Evil or Very Mad

There are plenty of cool board and war games they could have chosen for at least an Open Catagory. I'd go and play Settlers of Cataan or Junta or Munchkin or Lunch Money etc. etc. etc.

I can hear it now "hey GW games are popular so we're not even going to try doing something different"

As I said Sucky Sucky Suck Suck

Shame on you Bradford!- lazy thinking IMHO.
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I-KP



Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 3770
Location: Iddheim

PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GamesWankshaft strikes again. How immensely disappointing. What's wrong with the gaming community of this day? When did wargaming become so lowbrow, eh?
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mcc



Joined: 02 Oct 2003
Posts: 1088
Location: Leicester

PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is kinda a self fulfilling prophecy.... If you're not offering anything else then of course GW wargames are going to be the ones that run.

It's a little like telling somebody they can play whatever system they want as long as it's D20 - oh, hold on....

But still, I do feel it's a con actually eliminating any choice other than between GW games, is this the student Roleplaying and Wargaming Nationals? Or is it a combined GW games day and WOTC convention?

The organisers need kicking, hard!

Evil or Very Mad

See? See my frowny face?!!!
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Jeff



Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 198

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:39 am    Post subject: Maybe...but you both forget one thing Reply with quote

....That the majority of wargamers at the nationals have only been suckling on GW milk. They would not know one end of a TIGER tank from an other.

So while it would be nice to see non GW games, organisers are not willing to take the chance, a) because not knowing the tarditional wargame world, they do not understand it, leading to b) because they do not understand it, they do not think others are interested.

Now, we were the last to offer a traditional wargame, (ancients) and if my memory does not fail me, Bangor vets won all three places. I hope this makes my point.

Iain, i understand that you do not like GW, but have you offered your sevices to Bradford to Run a traditional game? If i'm wrong i'LL humbly appologies, but i think the answer is NO. So please get off you high horse about GW. Yes its RIPPING the traditional wargames comunity appart, but they are a very easy way to get into this hobby, and i'd rather see that that the whole hobby dying out.

'nough said!

jeff
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Iain Hunter



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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Location: My own personal Shangri La

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what you are saying is that because they are not popular they should not even be offered?

I disagree with that. How about an Open catagory or a Board games catagory (suggested some time ago but never picked up on). There are a great many games out there which are popular now but because it's easier to run GW they don't bother thinking outside the box.

I think things are going down the line of GW & D20 (look at the shelves in travelling man if you don't believe me) but that is no reason to give in. My objection is not that these catagories are not being run but that they are not even being offered.

If we accept this bag of bollocks how long until every roleplaying catagory is d20? I know people may find that ironic coming from me considering I chose to play D&D last year but I believe this shows a distinct lack of ambition from Bradford and some very tired thinking.

Consider this my two fingers up to the wargames organisers at Bradford.
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Jeff



Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 198

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:05 pm    Post subject: I disagree most strongly Reply with quote

Gw are not D20'ing wargames! they provide a their own basic system which is adapted to fantasy and sci-fi wargames! they are not screewing up other wargames as far as i can tell! I have not heard that GW were doing WW2 or Napo's!

It is more likely that clubs such as our ( and i use the term club very liberally) are not into the tradional wargames as much as they could be.
Now this could be for a variety of reasons, but that is not an excuse to blame GW for Screwing up wargames!

I have many gripes with GW games, but i cannot blame them for this, after all, the only reason i'm interested and have tried more traditional wargames is because i stated with GW games and then wanted to 'Think outside the box'

As fo Bradford, while i dissagree with their choice of wargames (GW only, and no open, which is what sheiffield did too remember) i can completely understand why they have decided not to run others!

So, it would be worthwhile looking past your unconditional poo-poing of GW systems which help bring new players into the hobby! ( especially as you play GW system regularly) and see that some places have no experience of anything else, and are maybe afraid to run an unknown elements in their fisrt nationals!

Jeff
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SteveBurge



Joined: 09 Oct 2003
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Location: Radishland

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's the Wizkids line of games too, Mageknight, Heroclix and Mechwarrior - they could offer those.

Steve
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Rob



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 344
Location: Leicester

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The choice of whether to run an open category is the organisers. It is disappointing that they have chosen not to.
Some of us have / had already offered help to run other games, but they have chosen to go with the games listed, which at the end of the day is their choice.

Chances are they have stuck to the games they know and more importantly can get refs for easily. Confused

This year only 3 people put in for the Open Category (Jeff, Stuart were 2, the other being myself, who offered to swap to make up numbers). So it was offered but not taken up.
This is not the organiser’s fault.
Players from different teams were not forthcoming.

2001 saw an open category and that I think was the last time it was run at the nationals. It was also the last time any historical games were run.

As for GW, whether you like them or not, have brought a number of people into the hobby as I think Jeff has already said.

BTW Jeff - The GW basic rules mechanics are being used in a number of periods from WW2 to Ancient battles by many clubs as an intro for new members, giving them something familiar to start with.
Thanks
Rob
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Iain Hunter



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 382
Location: My own personal Shangri La

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right

Firstly damn good point Steve- Clicky games would make for an excellent catagory (or three) and they are wargames so they do count!

Secondly I am not pooh pooh-ing GW games at all otherwise I wouldn't play them. However, it is a fact that GW have in the past bought up rival companies with the sole intention of removing competition (Avalon Hill anyone? Yeah I know, showing my age...) So it is untrue that GW have not manufactured a monopoly because they have deliberately eliminated games that they saw as a threat to their core systems. This, combined with a strong marketing campaign aimed predominantly at a younger audience in the early 90's has meant that it has crushed all major competition on this side of the Atlantic creating the aforementioned virtual monopoly and pushing small companies and systems out of the market.

So yes GW have screwed up other war games- they just did it 15-20 years ago.

Quite frankly my objection to this springs from that business tactic. It has nothing to do with the actual games themselves which are often well written and a damn good laugh. But rather from the fact that Bradford have not even attempted to try anything other than the same old same old.

Thirdly "first" nationals? This could be their one and only chance to run one of these! You don't wait till next time to try something new because there may not be a next time. You don't run a good event by thinking small and that's exactly what they are doing- thinking small and safe.
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I-KP



Joined: 25 Sep 2003
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Location: Iddheim

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Maybe...but you both forget one thing Reply with quote

Jeff wrote:
Iain, i understand that you do not like GW, but have you offered your sevices to Bradford to Run a traditional game? If i'm wrong i'LL humbly appologies, but i think the answer is NO. So please get off you high horse about GW. Yes its RIPPING the traditional wargames comunity appart, but they are a very easy way to get into this hobby, and i'd rather see that that the whole hobby dying out.


Well clearly you don't understand my objections to GW, and I'm having trouble understanding your position in the saddle with this one; you admit it's doing damage to the quality of the hobby (and as such adivse that I dismount) and yet that's okay because it gets more people in?! Frankly, I'd rather have a genre rich in diversity and "out of the box thinking" played by a smallish crowd than a homogenous offering for the proletariat. I am happy with my horse - I like the view from up here - so no, I will not be getting off if it's all the same to you.

No, I have not offered to help run anything. Please explain why I should. I want to play, Jeff. Play. I enjoy wargaming and I'm bloody good at it and nothing would please me more than to help DMU (Vets or otherwise) along in this regard in a game that rewards latteral thinking and grognard doctrine.

Not for one instant am I blind to why the organisers have done this. I happen to know that at least of the WG GMs would like nothing more than a GW alternative. From an organisational standpoint it is the safe bet - people will play, but as Matt already stated, such an attitude eventually ends up being self defeating (not for the Uni hosting at the time but it will be for future hosts, but that's the problem - no-one wants to take the risk for the possible benefit of future Nationals Events*). It's not a new phenomenon and I'm preaching to the choir so I'll shutthehellup on this point.

Potential players are dissapointed at the selection offered.

There is clearly room in Bradfords' boxers for a larger pair of balls.

(...and this debate should really be taking place on the Bradford board)

*On this point, didn't the Lego wargaming get favourable reports when we hosted? I'm sure that if the batton were picked up attendance for the Open WG's would grow year on year.
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Last edited by I-KP on Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
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SteveBurge



Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Posts: 307
Location: Radishland

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus the fact that when GW lands one of their stores in a town, it's not worth the other stores stocking their product, which means that kids don't get to see that there is an alternative.

Maybe we should stand outside GW hawking Heroclix and Magic Cards (Hey kids, the first one's free...)

Steve
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Jeff



Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 198

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 8:02 am    Post subject: GW a monopoly...yes it is! Reply with quote

But the whole point of this discussion was not wether GW is a 'bad boy' when it comes to its Business tactics, but wether bradford did the right thing in continuing this trend that GW games are the only ones to be offered at natioansl levels!

(on the business side of things, its a business. Their tactics might stink, and they might have created a monopoly, by swallowing smaller fish, but a business expands or dies. Ticking over might be an option if you run a coffe shop, but when it involves a hobby with such a large market size it is not an option! These other systems which encroached on the GW world might have been better, more fun etc..., but if their marketing strategy stank, and they only reached the hard core of gammers, well, what do you expect!
If a direct comparison was made, how many new gamers do you think these other systems reached? So i'll repeat my point. GW's business tactics bring in new gammers into thew hobby! its up to fellow gammers to show them the other systems out there)


Iain,

yes, Bradford choices are poor! (open wargame was the best fun i had at the nationals a few years back!)

Yes, i want to see 'other' wargames at the nationals ( ww2, ancients, lego etc...Not sure about 'clicks but thats probably because i have not really seen them in action)

when it come to getting player to play in these other categories, its a different matter! 'Bradford should get a bigger set of balls', mean that with whatever limited resources are available to them , they should spend time, effort and most probably money, organising terrain, scenarios, refs, in order to be able to offer systems, which by the trend of things will not fill, and most likely would be droped! As a past organiser of this event, i totally understand! Sheffield offered Open, but look, only those older gamers with a bit more experience chose this as first choice, and it was droped!

Now to finish off, this discussion, which woul be better over a pint or three anyway.

Is it self defeating...for the national definatly, for wargames in general, i do not think so! Why, well the core of gamers is getting smaller as we advance in our life, wether by choice or not. we do not have the appeal that GW can offer 'newbies'. but what we can do in our respective clubs/groups is to grab onto those 'newbies' and show them that there is life outside GW! and that is the only way our hobby is to survive!

Jeff...thouroughly brain drained....ready to get some work done then! Confused
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Rob



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 344
Location: Leicester

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couple of things
Steve B and a couple of people have said that Bradford could offer Mageknight, Heroclix and Mechwarrior etc. This is only possible if they have people who can run it. It may simply be a case they don’t have people / expertise. Sad

It is very hard for a club that is running an event such as the nationals to
1.coordinate with refs outside their club on games
2.be able to rely on non club members who offer help. We in 2001 were very lucky to have a good group of refs/ umpires etc. Not all clubs have that bonus.
3.Chances are Bradford want to put their own stamp on the event, much like all clubs do.

When I ran WW2 in Glasgow there were long conversations on the phone as to what was needed etc. That was for one system, if you multiple that for an open category it could prove a real head ache for the organisers

I-KP I think you’ve said you’d like a “genre rich in diversity and "out of the box thinking" played by a smallish crowd”

I agree it would be good to see a variety of games / genres / rules.
It is after all a wargames and roleplaying championships.

It’s been about 10 years since any real amount of non-GW games have been run at the nationals. But and yes I’m afraid there is a but, these games don’t pull in the punters in the numbers the organisers need.
If they have 6 people down as playing and then 2 drop out chances are the category will be dropped. This suddenly throws a lot of plans straight out of the window.

So Why is it non-GW games aren’t being thought of?

I can only guess it is due to the fact that most University clubs tend to concentrate on GW based games. There are a few clubs that do a variety of periods but I don’t think it’s many.
Guess they are just going for what will bring in the punters
Thanks
Rob
PS I-KP can I upload an avatar or not ? have tried a couple of times and it doesn't seem to work just get a red x? thanks Question
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Iain Hunter



Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 382
Location: My own personal Shangri La

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
on the business side of things, its a business. Their tactics might stink, and they might have created a monopoly, by swallowing smaller fish, but a business expands or dies


Two words for you- Marvel and DC. See? friendly rivalry can work to promote both sides of a hobby or interest. Yes this kind of business tactic can work but usually only for items and products people need. (ICI, Microsoft etc.) When there is a choice in a market it behooves the company to be the dominant factor but in a large market, not a small one. That's why Monopolies are a bad thing. Ultimately GW may find that a lack of competition hurts their business rather than enhances it.

Last word.

And their decision still sucks.
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