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Government's proposals on new laws on replica guns

 
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cat



Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 324
Location: Leicester

PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:35 am    Post subject: Government's proposals on new laws on replica guns Reply with quote

From the pagga board...

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmbills/010/06010.29-35.html#j8008

Point 30

Any comment or conserns?

Will this end modern / sci LRP?
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I-KP



Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 3770
Location: Iddheim

PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup.

Nope / nope.


Personaly, I find myself not disagreeing with the bill, but I do object to the way in which the route problem is being addressed.

IMO There is no justifiable use for a replica firearm other than to pretend to use it as a real weapon. Gun crime has gone up by over 300% since firearms where banned about ten years ago (one argument used by the anti-bill lobby), but sizeable proportion of that crime is perpetrated with replica firearms (one argument used by the pro-bill lobby) – you don’t need to actually use the weapon to accomplish the desired terror effect.

The anti-bill lobby would also have you believe that because Knives are a far more common weapon of choice that there is no point in banning replica firearms. Knives can only be legislated against in the areas of Possession and Acquisition. Knives have a legitimate use – replica firearms do not.

This may sound the death nell for Airsoft and other Sci-Fi based LARP but I don’t think that everyone need listen to it. It is likely that there will be a ban on weapons which are ‘indistinguishable from the real thing’ but that still leaves room for manoeuvre. Airsoft weapons may turn bright yellow and Sci-Fi may still take place but with obviously imitation weapons, e.g., Star Trek style stuff.

The reason I think that this bill is flawed at the conceptual level is because it addresses the right problem but from the wrong angle – arguably like most government ‘solutions’. One should be tackling criminal intent, not the tools of the criminal. To quote a common military maxim which I hold as a fundamental strategy when playing wargames; ‘Attack the Archer, not his arrows.’

These opinions are my own.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is that it is a too board statement.

Theatre and film company will be exempt but will re-enactors (and you could agrue LRPers) who by extention are hired by film companies as extras because they have all their own kit and weapons, to cut companies costs, like Saving private Ryan, Band of brothers and The fall of Saigon.

What I put up on pagga....
Quote:

The way it seems to me is a ban on indiviual purchaces rather than (film) company purchaces.

So an LRP group/club may be able to by replicas but they would have to remain the property of that group/club. (I'm guessing this would be the same for airsoft club which I guess have a supply for people who done own there own guns.)

But seeing film replicas cost £100 to silly money, no more "wow a P-90 for 25 quid" and you would have to prove that you have a 'lejit' reason to buy 10 prop AK47s. So its likely to kill that idea straight off.


From what airsofters are saying, Airsoft is in trouble, the Government has told all airsoft companies stock to off load there stocks because there will be no compansation. It includes the unreal coloured guns I.E. yellow because with a can of black spray you've turned a replica in to an imitation.

An out right ban is Over the top, restriction of sales would be a better plan.
Rather than every discount shop in the town centre stocking them.....
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I-KP



Joined: 25 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LARP / Airsoft, even in the eyes of the most liberal official, simply is not Theatre. If we [Airsofters and LARPers] think we can slip through the net with this then I think we're in for a shock.

Selling up (read: snapping up stock while you still can) is going to serve little purpose (other than dent your wallet needlessly) as, if this bill comes into law, LARP / Airsoft events that use these weapons will not be granted permission to take place. We can forget about the Scout Movement (for one) allowing the use of their camps! We'll have to travel over to the continent for such things or find a Farmer with a condusive attitude. Wink

I don't agree that it's over the top - cos there is no legitimate use for realistic looking weapons - but I do think that it's tackling the problem the easy (less effective?) way.

I've read through Pagga and had chats with a number of Airsofters from up north (know of a team at work) and I've not heard or read any real reason why realistic weapons should not be banned beyond that fact that it will put an end to their hobby and to be frank that just isn't gonna wash with the government. 10'000 LARPers and Airsofters are nothing compared to the millions of pro-fox hunters - and look where that got them. I'm not advocating zero resistance by any means but I don't know how exemptions are going to be accomplished without it looking like the lunatic fringe kicking up a fuss.

The Police think that a resitriction on sales isn't going far enough, and I have to agree. If the point of the exercise to is remove replica firearms from the streets then sales restrictions alone aren't going to have an effect. Sales restrictions are a bit of a joke as, for a start, there's naff all you can do about internet purchases from overseas. Name one thing that has a sales restriction that actually stops the target demographic from obtaining it?

Pick up your rubber sword and go lay waste to hordes of Deadites, but leave your P90 in the cupboard at home.

Blair is on a mission to lay down a legacy and very little is going to stop the tide. Get ready for some crazy s&$t over the next few years.
"Buckle up son. This ride's gonna be a rough one."
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Twisted



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be glad Ethan Blair's not old enough yet...we don't want another George Bush Jnr.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only part of LRP that is going to suffer is Modern sci fi (ie stargate etc)
and there are ways round it. (not that I'm bored with fanasty LRP at all...)
Quote:

I don't agree that it's over the top - cos there is no legitimate use for realistic looking weapons

You forgot re-enactors, which require realistic weapons particularly when doing public display.
Having bright pink rifles would kind of kill the historical accuracy. Wink
All the public events I've done, people are impressed with what we (re-enactors in general) do and like to see stuff up close that they've seen in the movies. This includes Veterans who used the stuff for real Shocked and are very keen on giving us tips, info and stories.
Quote:
but I do think that it's tackling the problem the easy (less effective?) way.

I think it will work.
People will still make them to use in crime but it will cut the amount of incendents with replica weapons
And hardened criminals will just use a real ones (not that they don't already). Shocked
Quote:

Sales restrictions are a bit of a joke as, for a start, there's naff all you can do about internet purchases from overseas. Name one thing that has a sales restriction that actually stops the target demographic from obtaining it?

Exaclty. Restrict it, ban it. The 'bad guys' are going to get what they want no matter what.
The ban on hand guns did not stop gun crime happening. I don't think it directly made it worse, other factors had greater bearing.
Quote:

Blair is on a mission to lay down a legacy and very little is going to stop the tide. Get ready for some crazy s&$t over the next few years.
"Buckle up son. This ride's gonna be a rough one."

Yeah, I agree. Just some of the stuff their coming out with does seem their try to make a name for them selves. It boads ill......
Quote:

Be glad Ethan Blair's not old enough yet...we don't want another George Bush Jnr.


Damn right.
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I-KP



Joined: 25 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cat. wrote:
The only part of LRP that is going to suffer is Modern sci fi (ie stargate etc)

I agree, and commented as such up there somwhere.

cat. wrote:
You forgot re-enactors, which require realistic weapons particularly when doing public display.

Which is why there is a theatric exclusion where the items are to be held by a central organisation, under lock and key, and only released when under supervision.

Modern LARP / Airsoft is unlikely to get in under the remit of being Theatre. How, like Historic Re-enactment, is modern LARP educational?

cat. wrote:
I think it will work.
People will still make them to use in crime but it will cut the amount of incendents with replica weapons
And hardened criminals will just use a real ones (not that they don't already). Shocked

It makes me chuckle when people use this argument. Just because there is a greater negative how does that mean that one should not bother tackling the lesser ones?

cat wrote:
The ban on hand guns did not stop gun crime happening. I don't think it directly made it worse, other factors had greater bearing.

This is an argument without perspective. There is no way to know whether gun crime would be far worse today if firearms were not banned. And as a matter of fact, serious gun crime dropped by 18% after the ban but the overall count of gun-related crime has gone up by 300% between then and now - but then so has most other kinds of violent crime. It's an impossible comparison to make really.

cat. wrote:
Yeah, I agree. Just some of the stuff their coming out with does seem their try to make a name for them selves. It boads ill......

Yup. Write to your MP if you want something changed. The only other way you can get heard is to start a riot outside Westminster Palace - but you're gonna need a hell of a lot more than 10'000 people to rival the Poll Tax Riots (which was arguably the last time that policy changed as a direct result of public unrest).

Does anybody even remotely think that banning the manufacture and sale of realistic looking firearms is even in the same league? "The lunatic fringe are at the front door again, Sir."

Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it just you and me, Iain? No-one else joining in?

Quote:

Which is why there is a theatric exclusion where the items are to be held by a central organisation, under lock and key, and only released when under supervision.

Lot of the WWII groups do this with blank firers (rebored real weapons rather than the 'cheap knock offs' us Nam guys use) for the big displays. But they find it impractical and costly for small events.
Quote:

How, like Historic Re-enactment, is modern LARP educational?

Did I infer that? Confused
'cause it ain't.
Quote:

There is no way to know whether gun crime would be far worse today if firearms were not banned. And as a matter of fact, serious gun crime dropped by 18% after the ban but the overall count of gun-related crime has gone up by 300% between then and now - but then so has most other kinds of violent crime. It's an impossible comparison to make really.

Precisely my point!
Thanks for putting better! Wink

Quote:

Write to your MP if you want something changed.

Thats my plan! Very Happy
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I-KP



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cat. wrote:
Is it just you and me, Iain? No-one else joining in?

*looks around*
Yup, nobody in here but us chickens.

cat. wrote:
Lot of the WWII groups do this with blank firers (rebored real weapons rather than the 'cheap knock offs' us Nam guys use) for the big displays. But they find it impractical and costly for small events.

I don't doubt it. Sounds like a right pain in the ass. Can you see modern / contemporary sci-fi LARP events running under such a regime? I certainly can't, and that would probably be their only hope.

cat. wrote:
I-KP wrote:
How, like Historic Re-enactment, is modern LARP educational?

Did I infer that? Confused
'cause it ain't.

No, but ppl on Pagga have done and they're urinating up the wrong tent if they think that because if the Re-enactors are granted exception then so should LARPers/Airsofters. Taint gonna wash.

cat. wrote:
Precisely my point!
Thanks for putting better! Wink

What I said was not an argument against the banning of firearms. Wink

cat. wrote:
Thats my plan! Very Happy

Good luck.

Anyway, it's not law yet and anything could happen in the next half hour.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bok, bok, bok......... Laughing

Quote:

What I said was not an argument against the banning of firearms. :Wink:

Yup, but it was close to what I was trying to say Wink

I was about to say on pagga that LRP can't be classed as theatre.
Then realised I was going to argue into saying it is. Confused

As its seen on the continent where they get grants and subsidies. It is effectly amateur dramatics, therefore theatre. Rather than paying to go an see a play you pay to participate in the 'play' (Thinking of events) .
I think most of the lectures on my course would agree.

But would the government see it that way? I think not.
If this law is past, I think we are gonna lose. Sad

But the way this government is going, anything could happen!
(sudden feeling of de ja vu......?) Confused
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I-KP



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even if, through some miracle, LARP was granted exception as a form of Theatre just imagine the bureaucratic hoops that would have to be jumped through just to get a game off the ground. That would near as damn it kill off most modern/contemporary LARP that involves realistic looking firearms anyway.

As for Airsoft; the ‘Sport’ tack is their only hope and that mattered not a jot when the Target Shooters (a legitimate Sport at the time – and still is, but much much smaller numbers these days) opposed the Firearms laws years ago. Airsoft / Blank Firer events will be hit the hardest on this one I think.
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Iain Hunter



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And what about paintball? Is that exempt?
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Tim



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iain Hunter wrote:
And what about paintball? Is that exempt?


I would have thought so. The law is a ban on "replica" firearms and all the paintball guns I've seen look like a really badly made plumbing project.

But then again, so did the Sten...Twisted Evil

Cheers,
Tim
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